The Power of Data Podcast
Episode 53: Harnessing Data For Fraud Prevention & Detection
Guest: Bruce Dorris, President and Chief Executive Officer, Association of Certified Fraud Examiners
Interviewer: Andrew La Marca, Leader of the Global High Risk and Fraud Insight Team, Dun & Bradstreet
Welcome to The Power of Data Podcast. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening. My name is Andrew La Marca and I am the Leader of the Global High Risk and Fraud Insight team here at Dun and Bradstreet. And today I'm delighted to be joined by Bruce Dorris, President and Chief Executive Officer for the Association of Certified Fraud Examiners, welcome.
Thanks for having me on.
Of course. Looking back to 2012 when you taught my CFP review course in Miami, Florida and to be here eight years later, having a discussion with you, it's an honor and a privilege. It would be great if you could start off introducing yourself to our listeners and tell us about your background and career.
Yeah, again, thanks to you for reaching out and having us a part of this podcast. We've had a great relationship with Dun and Bradstreet over the years and glad to be a part of it and continue. I remember that course in Miami - you may not remember this, but what stands out so much to me is I had an allergy attack when I was down there, and I just could not stop sneezing. It was very distracting for someone like me, I like to walk around and it was causing me to sit behind that podium, and I couldn't get out and interact with everyone as much as I wanted to, but it's good to reconnect. I love what I do, I love being a part of the anti-fraud community, it’s where I've spent my professional career coming out of law school, I had a district court clerkship and met one of the prosecutors who was talking about CPA, and he was talking about how, hey, with your accounting background, as well as law, having someone to handle these financial crimes, they would probably be interested in you doing this. You know, I've done a little bit of it now, as a part time special prosecutor. And so I talk to my wife, and we're thinking, alright, look, my background was in tax, my degree was in finance. I was taking that investment banking type of highway out of college and went to law school and was going to go to the tax route and started thinking, alright, hey, look, I'll do this prosecuting thing for a couple years, that'll help me get off the associate track to a partnership track much, much faster, because I have this litigation experience. Do that for two, three years or so. 14 years later, I was still there because I really loved that waking up and doing my best and my role to right some wrongs. And I love teaching, I love being a part of sharing my experiences with others, like the course that you attended in Miami a few years ago. And being able to be a part of that allowed me to teach through the university system as well. And through those, both the professional career as a prosecutor and then also teaching led me to the ACFE and I met the now former President Jim Radley, who was Program Director at that time, and now being able to be a part of this as the President and CEO is just a dream come true.
Yeah, that's excellent. I remember at that review course, you were talking about your law enforcement background. And I think we could probably spend all day talking about, you know, different types of fraud cases that we've investigated and worked. But I want to dive in a little bit more and have our listeners learn more about the ACFE. So could you explain for our listeners about what the ACFE is, and its mission?
Sure. ACFE is the largest anti-fraud organization in the world. We have over 85,000 members worldwide. Founded in 1988, here in the United States, but have fostered that growth around the world. It was founded by now, Dr. Joseph T. Wells, who was a special agent with the FBI, and noticed that even in his career with the Bureau and then subsequently going into private practice, that there really wasn't the ability for the marriage of an investigator and an accountant - those two different silos. And what the association did was bring that together and allowing you someone who has investigative skills to then learn the financial side, and vice versa. Because before and that was part of the reason that I was brought into in my role as a prosecutor is because they're going on these types of prosecutions, the ones that you see on television, you know, the Law and Orders, the ones that actually have shows about, you know, it's kind of hard to have shows about data analytics, it's not as sexy. What the association did even in early stages, realize, we have to make sure that both of these specialties understand the importance of what fraud examination is. And so that's the mission of the ACFE, is to bring those together, and then provide certification and expertise to those who meet those requirements. As you know, you're specializing in fraud prevention, detection, investigation, and what has happened since 1988 is really started as helping those who are in that investigation side of things, but it's moved more into so many other areas with compliance with data analytics, in the internal audit community, as well as those who are doing you know, the straight on investigations. The membership is pretty diverse with law enforcement, as you mentioned. Those who are in compliance, legal, the accounting function, the internal audit, an external audit that was there in consulting, so many groups who now come together and are able to talk to one another, and to come to these conferences and really understand the battles that they're facing, that others are facing as well, and that wasn't done before, there was no way for them to really come together. One of the programs over the last 10 years that we've established, and allowing for the Corporate Alliance members, for those who are on the back side of things, not necessarily the front business operation, but rather than allowing them to come into the closed door, Chatham House Rules atmosphere, so that we can talk about some of the concerns that they have, that they can't necessarily talk about in public forums that you would see on the net, or address, at least in a more public fashion. It's really shown over the years that there's a lot of fraud out there and as we've discovered even more areas that we can help businesses and industry to come together to fight this common problem.
I couldn't agree more Bruce. And from just going to these conferences, and being part of the organization for the past eight years, you said that it's coming together, right? It's fraud professionals coming together, working to identify, investigate and prevent fraud from happening again in the future. And it's truly an organization that Dun and Bradstreet has embraced having a team of certified fraud examiners, D&B is proud to stand tall with your organization, the fraud fighting community, to help root out fraud. Being able to network with a bunch of fraud professionals at these conferences, or even on a webinar or even at a local chapters really shows the power of the ACFE and then also how important it is for organizations to prevent fraud, because every organization experiences fraud, but just what type of fraud. And I think that's what's so unique is everyone can come together, share their expertise, and learn and develop and grow. It's really a very powerful organization, and one that we're honored to be a part of.
It's interesting, even in a pandemic, we're still getting so much traction and attention because in times like these, I think Warren Buffett is the one who said it, you don't find out who's swimming naked until the tide goes out. And what happens is, if you go back 10 plus years ago, when we had that last recession, relating to the financial crisis and await the Bernie Madoff’s, you know, come out, because of credit drying up and cash flow drying up. And so we're still in that early phase of it. But as you're mentioning, we've got that warning out there, we have that system in place, we're talking about it more. And this is released during international fraud awareness week to talk about this issue. And the F word fraud is not necessarily a dirty word anymore. As we look at and we're talking about it more and more we talk about it, the more awareness we raise more awareness we raise, the more we can reduce.
Very true. So you touched on with COVID-19. How have you seen the economy embrace the ACFE and has there been an increase in membership?
There's a lot of new members coming in. I mean, obviously, there's going to be some groups that new because of furloughs and issues like that. But we have seen a lot of increase in new members primarily because they're able to now focus on getting the certification. It takes a lot of time to invest into it and so you know, those commutes, you know, if you're living in New York City area, that two hour train ride and you’re home now, and so able to concentrate on more. So we actually see that increase since March related to people who are able to dedicate a little bit more time to that. So that's good to see because one, when people are taking advantage of that opportunity and the time because they're not traveling, they're not in those types of engagements, we're pulling them away from their home. But they're realizing the importance of fraud prevention and awareness and getting that certification to not only help their organization, but also help themselves and grow in their careers. We look at the compensation guide that we have on ACFE.com you'll see that I think it's about 25-30% more if our recall, more for a like position, if someone has a certified fraud examiner designation, versus someone who does not. And people are taking advantage of that so that when we do move out of this and we will, they'll be positioned for those types of advancements or other job opportunities.
Yeah, that's great to hear. I know that the ACFE specifically has helped me in my career, not only from a development and knowledge standpoint, but also from a professional standpoint, having been a certified fraud examiner, right, that ethical moral that we have to go by to complete an investigation, that fact finding investigation that we do, I think that speaks volumes to what the organization stands by, and what I'll see if he's have to go through in order to become a member and be certified. So it's really great to hear and I look forward to meeting these new CFE’s at conferences in the future.
What I want to do now is kind of shift into more as to what we're seeing about COVID-19 being that it’s global, this year has been one of the most disruptive years that we've seen in a generation. And with much disruption, we are witnessing fraudsters trying to take advantage of government bodies who are trying to help their communities and nations. Have you in the ACFE seen an increase in fraudulent activity? And if so, what types?
Yeah, and just from the United States, we can bring other central banks into this as well. But just in the United States, you look to March-April yet $2 trillion plus just infused into an economy over a matter of just a couple of weeks. Now, you know, this from your training in your career, you need to have controls in place for that. Well, that balance of trying to have sufficient controls, but also the intent is to help people and to get this money into the hands of individuals and businesses, those who are really, really hurting because of lockdown measures and things like that. And you expand that throughout the world in terms of GDP, there's a lot that comes in. Well, fraudsters are really looking for those types of opportunities. When you look at the fraud triangle with financial pressures, opportunities and rationalization, the opportunity is there because they recognize that, oh, hey, everybody's at home now. They're not going to have the same type of cyber protections that they would have before because they're in their apartment, or they're not paying as close attention because they're in their pajamas, or they've got kids running around. And so whatever the case, could be that opportunity risk is now there. So what we did back in late April started the survey, we released it in May. We did another one in late August and into September, what's called ‘Fraud in the Wake of COVID-19 Benchmarking Report’ and this is free to anyone wanting to go and download who's listening to this podcast ACFE.com/COVIDreport. We'll do another one here, probably in about a month, I think. And our respondents coming in, at least initially, just knowing that huge increase in fraud, and that was over, you know, just the first two months. Since then. 77% of ACFE members see the uptick in fraud that year, half saying that the increase was significant. 92% said that they expect to see a further increase in the level of fraud over the coming year, some of the schemes that they're seeing pretty evident of what we're dealing with now cyber fraud, ransomware, business email compromise those types of schemes. I mean, it's challenging people are working remotely now. So some of the safeguards that you had before aren't necessarily there, or they're a hybrid. I mean think about organizations who have a fairly robust fraud risk assessment progress management program throughout, well March just completely changed that. Yeah, this is kind of an aside, but it's an organization hasn't really gone into reassess their fraud risk plan within the confines of COVID-19 really, really needs to do so.
Yeah. And you know, as it relates to specifically the Dun and Bradstreet, one of the trends that we're seeing is business identity theft, right, which is very similar to business email compromised in a way. This is where bad actors are leveraging corporate registrations, business entities and committing fraud, right? Can you just recommend any best practices to, you know, firms globally, on how they can detect identity theft or investigated? You know, what are some of the tools that can help these organizations?
Well, I mean, I think especially from a business identity perspective, and going beyond that to cyber intrusions, and things like that is just that monitoring aspect. And I can even go more general to that, because when you look at organizations who have these robust controls, so we've got, you know, this fantastic control environment. But if we're not monitoring those controls, then they're not going to be very effective in the same thing that you would go with in terms of identity theft, and business identity theft, we've got to monitor that using D&B, using the resources that are out there to make sure that others aren't going and trying to get credit in our business name and trying to run up and going off and doing those types of searches. Making sure that our front lines have the anti-fraud training and awareness to be able to look out for those things. And to be aware, you're just making sure that you've got the controls in place, if they don't have multi-factor authentication, things like that. The resources are out there free this is to raise awareness. This is serious, and we've got a dedicated week for you to raise the issues that not only can you as an individual, you know, have this type of identity theft, but the business that you work for can as well. Here's how we need to be vigilant about it. I talked to someone who ran a fairly large fraud risk department at their organization. They were talking to me about how if you've raised issues during certain parts of the year, staff and those who are doing that training and things like that they may think, oh, man, do we get hacked, something going on that internal audit or compliance or whoever is now trying to come in and tell us when to start looking for? Well, if we've got a dedicated week, this kind of makes it easier for organizations to go in and talk about it. Because now they don't have that potential stigma in there of the employees, man, while they're talking about fraud is something wrong, whereas you get this dedicated week takes the pressure off, for that matter and people can go and start talking about a lot of the issues that relate to business, identity theft, or whatever it is that would impact that business or that industry. And so it's a great time to go in and talk about a lot of the controls that you're aware of, that I'm aware of and it's there to, to really discuss.
Yeah, I think it's also important, you know, as we talk about International Fraud Awareness Week, we know that every company experiences some type of fraud, but we're all in this together. Just because you have a team of certified fraud examiners doesn't mean that they're the ones who are responsible for detecting it, preventing it and investigating it. I think it's important that the whole organization embraces the role of detecting fraud, preventing fraud. That's how we can help root this problem out globally. And I think, you know, as this is released during International Fraud Awareness Week, one thing that the high risk and fraud insight team here at Dun & Bradstreet likes to do is one we'd like to share amongst ourselves, incidents of fraud that we're seeing. But you know, in 2015, we built a Consortium and this Consortium allows clients have Dun & Bradstreet and others to participate in fraud sharing Consortium, we know as if you talk to another fraud investigator, you can learn and develop and grow your skills, but also sharing fraud, intelligence about what you're seeing, and so forth, can go a long way to helping other organizations. So are you seeing an increase in businesses looking to share this intelligence about bad actors or bad entities?
Yeah, we've seen that I mean, something that we promote is having that ability to come together. Again, Chatham House Rules, we want to make sure that they can talk and they feel comfortable talking. I remember, not too long ago, there was a business email compromise issue with in one particular partners, and they were in the hospitality industry. And they were talking about how you've got these controls in place for those who are in management, those who are in sales and within the industry. But what they didn't really think about was those who are these third party that come in that are housekeeping staff, and they had email addresses related to the business, but they're not doing any training with them, but they're doing training with the others. So guess who's gonna take full advantage of that, once they have that knowledge? And I'm listening to this, and I'm thinking, wow, you know, fraudsters really understand, and they're gonna be looking for those gaping holes, those opportunities, when you look at it from the fraud triangle perspective, and when you start looking at it, you know, the first, second and third line of defence's, that we've got to make sure that everyone has training. I have talked about this for years, you don't know what you're looking for, until you're trained. And you may have an idea, you may have a feeling, but you don't know where to report it, you don't know how to use a hotline, you don't know how to talk to internal or you don't know how to, to discuss this with a fraud investigator, we've got to make that knowledge where we can be able to get that from that individual and we can share that internally, and then externally with those who are like minded, that's what those conferences are about. And even in a virtual environment we're still having these roundtable discussions so that we can have just what you're talking about in a secure platform and really discuss these things robustly.
I think the key part there is training and going back to we all have a responsibility in this fight against fraud, all great points Bruce. As it relates to COVID, I know the ACFE put out a report last month for COVID in the Benchmarking Report, but is there any one of those top five trends that really surprised you or the ACFE that maybe other organizations should be made aware of?
I guess it really wasn't surprising, but it was just the starkness in dealing with cyber fraud, and so many fronts. I mean it's an issue that we've had to deal with for so many years, but your entire staff, you've got them in a building that's got a T one connection, and you know, they're really on top of it, you're IT is on the floor below there, if there's some type of issue, they can either call them on the phone via the machine or even that person could physically come up there if they have to. In March that's gone. And so what we've seen is and that's the highest one and the report that you mentioned in May, it continued actually went higher in the one that was issued in September, relating to the cyber threats that are out there. And it's something that we've got to continue to drive home to our staff and let them know that you've got to be vigilant about this, we've got to raise awareness into the training so that we can prevent fraud within our organizations and externally as well if we know what we're looking for, we've got to make sure that when we're logging in, we're going through a virtual private network to work on from home making sure that the right permissions are there. I mean, if you think about it, it's not necessarily nefarious, but if someone's logged in to some very detailed data within their organization, and you know, before, they could just, you know, Ctrl, Alt, Delete, and go down the hall, have snack, talk to someone and come back. Well, now they're at their kitchen table, don't necessarily feel that same way. And even though you know, their four-year-old may not be this fraudulent mastermind, they can still hook up there and start doing things of the computer. So all types of issues that are now there, that fraud examiners and those in this field are having to deal with. That's the biggest issue that we have seen coming from those reports. And we have seen increased unemployment fraud, especially in those jurisdictions that have tried to put stimulus money into play, fraudsters trying to take advantage of that stealing identities and trying to get those monies from governments and also seeing an increase in in payment fraud as well.
I think it's key right now, going back to the point that you were making that before, when we were in the office, we can hit Ctrl, Alt, Delete, we're on a private network. Now we're at home, if your organization is playing a VPN, use the VPN, it's a great way to not only secure your home, but also secure your organization. And just protect yourself because you don't know if your home network has been compromised. I think it's just key that everybody just remain mindful of even though we're working at home, there's still fraud that's happening. These fraudsters are looking at home networks, because sometimes their controls may not be as strong as your organization's.
You're absolutely right. I think the longer this pandemic continues, the more comfortable staff are with working in those environments and so they may let their guard down in some. So that's where Fraud Awareness Week and just having good progress management policies within an organization really help because hey, look at realize we've been doing this for six months, you all are doing great, however, still make sure you're updating - those sorts of messages, we've got to make sure that we continue to do that.
I couldn't agree more. At the ACFE Global Fraud Conference in June, data and analytics were heavy component in the breakout session for all the right reasons. How are you and the ACFE, recommending using data and analytics to help identify fraud?
Well, there is so much information out and when you start looking at the amount of data any organization has, you know, especially now and whenever they mean virtually digitize, there's also going to be risk of someone taking it but also there's the ability to go in and use this information to prevent fraud. And so over the years, and really in the last, I'd say 10 years, we went from having just a couple of sessions on data analytics to having its own track about five years ago, and then expanding from even that point. And now if you go looking at benchmarking reports that are going in and really studying how organizations are using data analytics to prevent fraud. And if you look at some of the data that we had from the report to the nation's, those who are using this proactive types of data analytics, especially the structured data, and then trying to really harness that and using fraud examiners using internal audit, whoever it is in your organization that owns that, letting them go in and really start to study and look for those anomalies. And because of that, we realize that, hey, not everyone has this background. And we've put on this workshop where there's a lot of interaction with instructors, and working in teams, and looking at reams and reams of data and how to isolate and analyze this and looking for those anomalies and looking for those addresses. You know, whatever how we stratified that. What we're seeing now is organizations really want to continue to do this. And we've put that effort into place to make sure that they've got that training that they can go in and being able to take that back and really start to analyze it. You know, as organizations start to implement more AI start implementing more machine learning, I think you're going to see the advancement of data analytics really, really increase, which is why we pay so much attention to it.
Yeah, and adding to that, you know, some of the things that we do in Dun & Bradstreet is you know, obviously having that business data, right having all this business data to be able to come through using analytics, AI, machine learning, to be able to find these anomalies. I think that's what makes it unique. We know businesses don't commit fraud, bad actors at businesses commit the fraud. So being able to have business identifying information, plugging in with AI and machine learning to drive stronger controls on your front, to help your investigators on the back end, drive more efficiencies with their investigations. I think data and analytics is a great component and a necessary part of an investigator now. Before he used to pick up the phone or used to knock on somebody's door, there was a lot of face to face right now that we're working from home, I think the pressure is on organizations more to use more data and analytics, especially if an organization has data about bad actors, that's even more valuable in times like this. It's really great to be able to see how data can be used overall as an organization, but as it relates to fraud, it's extremely valuable.
I was just wondering, first, have you and the ACFE seen an increase in the use of data and analytics since COVID-19? And has there been a specific use case that maybe you've heard from an organization of how they've implemented or purchased this data asset or used analytics to help identify the fraud specifically?
Well, I think most anti-fraud professionals are having to rethink how they've worked before. And now that so many are having to work remotely, we've removed any type of on-site examination. So being able to go in and analyze the data is a lot of cases, you know, that's moved up. I mean, we ran these before, we're able to go in and look for those things based off perhaps a tip or just, you know, if we had continuous monitoring. Whatever the case may be, depending on the size of the organization that is really focused now on using their machines to do that, because like I said, the face to face stuff, the on-site thing is gone now, or at least for the time being. And so because of that, you're going to see organizations and you're seeing organizations really start to focus on this. And they can pick out those anomalies a lot better, and looking for those trends, like why do we see an increase from this particular vendor? Why are we seeing an increase in payments from this particular region, and being able to really analyze that even if you go back pre pandemic, you're going to see organizations that have these types of controls in place, you know, having that continuous monitoring, that are really being proactive with their data analytics, they've got nearly a half of fraud losses that some organization similar to them in size does not. And that data has been pretty clear over the last couple of years, especially as we grow in learning more with analytics. I think one of the downsides is going to be because of that isolation, and perhaps the power of what we can do from homes and apartments and things like that, I think over the last six months there, what I've seen is more of an increase in technology for those who are doing that remotely. And hopefully, you know, within someone's business, if they need more powerful equipment, in order to run these, they're able to do that and you see that investment. And so that's the one thing that we've noticed with some of those trends, when you look at it from the spin side of it Andrew, is your organization's they haven't cut back like I would have thought. And that's a good thing. And I don't mean just personnel, I'm talking about the control measures and using data analytics and that type of software and platforms. If we don't see a retraction, that we should not see a huge increase in fraud, other than the ones that we've seen there. But if organizations start pulling back and trying to cut those costs, that just creates a perfect storm for fraud because as we go into this and trying to get close to the recovery, financial pressures are going to increase. And as financial pressures increase, if we decrease the controls by cutting the spending, in terms of data analytics, and things like that, or any anti-fraud measures, then you run the risk of losing that. And now, once you've lost that to fraud, you're talking about just a few dollars, compared to the vast number of dollars that you're going to have to get in terms of sales to make up for what you lost.
That's a great point. And even if they can't make it up, and organizations do make the shift later down the line one-two years later and say oh, we now we have to invest in this or reinvest in the space, it might cost three, four or five times more rather than just keeping up with what you're currently spending as far as your controls and your personnel, so very important stuff.
As we look ahead to the next few years, do you have any projections on what's next for combating fraud? What's the newest technology we're seeing outside of you know, the use of analytics, machine learning and so forth? Is there a type of authentication that we're seeing that's really making headways here, and it's always hard to predict what fraudsters are going to do right and this is kind of a loaded question, what are your thoughts on what can we see next from these fraudsters?
I think you're going to see exactly what we have been talking about during this podcast. As technology grows, we have more available to us and we're able to do more in terms of working remotely and these new inventions and new things that we can do and faster and it's more automated, fraudsters know that too. And they're looking for that opportunity. Because as we grow, we still haven't necessarily figured out where the soft underbelly is within those advancements. Fraudsters are looking for that. So one of the areas that I'm concerned with, and we start looking at deep fakes, how is that especially in the authentication process, as you mentioned, how is that going to become a problem for organizations? That's something that we grapple with, and we're really watching very, very closely. I mean, advancements are great, but we have to make sure that we have safeguard for those advancements, as well, machine learning AI, robotic process automation, things like that. Those are great advances, but fraudsters know how to leverage that as well. So we've got to be ready, we have to be vigilant, and we have to understand them, talk about them, and train.
Yeah. And we can even add into it, you can have all the technology in the world that you want, right and spend X number of dollars on it, it also comes down to the people, right, we all have a responsibility to do this. So going back to the point you made earlier about training. Training, the frontline the eyes and the ears, the salespeople, customer service personnel, right, having them know what to look for what to hear for that over eagerness, you're going to hear this more. So I think it's a unified approach for an organization to tackle. I think what we're going to be seeing is more of a collective approach for organizations coming together.
Before we finish off, I wanted to end with one last question here, as we look to put 2020 behind us and enter 2021, what would be your advice or recommendations to other businesses, or potential fraud fighters out there about the ACFE, about anti-fraud community?
The biggest recommendation that I can give, do not cut your anti-fraud controls. It looks easy, especially from someone who doesn't have that anti-fraud background and say, okay, well, the this is non-revenue generating cost, it's tight, like I understand that completely. But it's going to hurt you in the long run. Because if you go in and cut those controls, you now allow for the opportunity externally and internally, because your employees are having financial pressures to it. They know where that soft underbelly is, you know, the external, the, you know, those fraudsters are just trying to get their way in, you know, those internally are going to know where the holes are. And if we cut back on our anti-fraud controls, it's going to create problems down the line. So I really, really encourage everyone, that's my recommendation. It feels like you should try not to do that and this is a really good time to invest in those so that we can try to prevent as much fraud as we can.
I agree. And you know, fraud prevention is one of those necessary evil, you have to have them, or else the cost of fraud is going to go up for that organization. And how about any potential fraud fighters out there? So somebody who hear about fraud in the news they want to understand it more? What are your thoughts or recommendations for them? As far as how can they get involved? How can they learn more?
Well, I think for everyone who is looking to either get into the field or as been for a while in being engaged in learning more, and you go to ACFE.com, there's a tremendous amount of information for non-members as well as members. I mean, you can dive as deep as you want to, and probably heard me say this before, there's no fraud examiner, that's an expert in every single area, you start looking at examination areas of that in dealing with investigations, law, financial transactions, and then the fraud prevention and deterrence side of it. Yeah, I still haven't met someone who is a master in all of those categories. So use this time to learn, you know, you hear anecdotally about outside our sphere, you know, people going in and uses time during quarantine to learn a new language and things like that, well, for those in the fraud field or wanting to get into it, use this time to learn more about data analytics, which we talked about, use this to really understand ratio analysis and things like that that can help you within your personal career, as well as your organization.
I definitely agree here. Well, Bruce it's been an absolute pleasure having you join us here today on the Power of Data Podcast, sharing your expertise with our listeners. Thank you very much, and we appreciate your time.
Thanks for having me.